67 replies to this topic

[Xmith]

On 6/20/2013, I said in so many words that balance will never happen because of the skill level of players. I'm not referring to just the new pilots. This is also directed at the folks that have been playing for awhile but still are whining about balance. I still believe this to be true.

New players come onto the forums looking for solutions to the problems they encounter. What they need to see are answers to their question on how they should do this and that.

So what the new players end up reading are ways to nerf the problems they run up against. It's like watching all those commercials from drug companies. Eventually people will say, yeah, I got those symptoms.

Anyway, basically same thing here. Yeah, those PPCs, ACs and LRMs are tearing me up. I can't move in any direction. PGI should do something about this. YEAH, NERF IT! So, they end up joining the chorus without really trying to get a handle on their problems first.

Sadly, we have to deal with this forever. There will always be new players and there will be players that will always need help from PGI so they can have fun without the hard knocks.

It is what it is.

[Lyoto Machida]

The problem is most players are bad. Not saying, I'm great...I'd say I'm slightly above average. People seem to always want the easy way out and learning how to defeat things isn't the easy way...so they call for the nerf.

Change the ruleset instead of increase their skill level sort of thinking.

[Aurien Titus]

The problem has never been lack of skill on a players part. It's always been a lack of communication, in particular, the lack of VOIP. As I've always said, back in closed beta me and 7 random people could roll pugs all night. Wasn't because of training, or building some balanced unit, or because we played together all the time. It was the simple fact that we could TALK TO EACH OTHER VIA VOIP, that we would roll pugs. They've split, segregate, and tried everything except adding VOIP to this game to even teams. Maybe one day they'll spend the millions they've received to actually fix the game, instead of just cashing a check.

[Mycrus]

Xmith, on 16 April 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

On 6/20/2013, I said in so many words that balance will never happen because of the skill level of players. I'm not referring to just the new pilots. This is also directed at the folks that have been playing for awhile but still are whining about balance. I still believe this to be true.

New players come onto the forums looking for solutions to the problems they encounter. What they need to see are answers to their question on how they should do this and that.

So what the new players end up reading are ways to nerf the problems they run up against. It's like watching all those commercials from drug companies. Eventually people will say, yeah, I got those symptoms.

Anyway, basically same thing here. Yeah, those PPCs, ACs and LRMs are tearing me up. I can't move in any direction. PGI should do something about this. YEAH, NERF IT! So, they end up joining the chorus without really trying to get a handle on their problems first.

Sadly, we have to deal with this forever. There will always be new players and there will be players that will always need help from PGI so they can have fun without the hard knocks.

It is what it is.

The fact that you are mentioning lurms acs and PPCs in the same sentence means something...

[Fut]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

If a slow old fart like me can have a positive Win record, the folks that are not having a similar or better experience may just not be a good MechWarrior. It is nothing to get mad about. Either practice Like I did, or move on. *Shrug*

Exactly.
This game definitely isn't for everybody. Some people just don't have the patience to play a game where you can't just charge right out in the open. Some people don't have the patience to learn this particular game. It's just life.

Would really wish, though, that these people would refrain from trying to change this game into things it's not supposed to be.
If this game isn't fun for you, move along to one that is fun, and let the rest of us enjoy MWO for what it is.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

It will be balanced eventually!

Think about it this way for a minute. You nerf the best weapon every month and then eventually they all have the same range, same damage, and same heat....balance!

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

You do seem to complain a lot about this and the other weapons. I'm right there with Lyoto 1.0 KDR and a Slightly higher W/L at 61%. Then again I have dropped more with the Law than in the past so That could be that extra 4% win margin. I'm 48 years old, with a fair Computer for gaming. With one year of almost all solo play I have a 59% win percentage and a 1.23 KDR.

If a slow old fart like me can have a positive Win record, the folks that are not having a similar or better experience may just not be a good MechWarrior. It is nothing to get mad about. Either practice Like I did, or move on. *Shrug*

Since the wipe, 42/36 W/L and 1.33 K/D. Only have a 3 Mech stable as well. Old is not a bad thing at all.

Like the old joke. 2 Bulls are sitting up on a hill.

The younger of the two says, "Let's run down there and screw us a cow."

The older bull responds.

"Hows about we walk down and screw them all."

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

stuff

Some would go so far as to say I am VERY trying.

Everyone knows that you're trying your best Joe. The numbers will improve. Don't get disheartened. lol

Werewolf486, on 17 April 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

It will be balanced eventually!

Think about it this way for a minute. You nerf the best weapon every month and then eventually they all have the same range, same damage, and same heat....balance!

Bah! I read that was suggested back in CB. PGI didn't go for it. Reason was not provided. LOL!

[Rex Budman]

Fut, on 17 April 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

Exactly.
This game definitely isn't for everybody. Some people just don't have the patience to play a game where you can't just charge right out in the open. Some people don't have the patience to learn this particular game. It's just life.

Would really wish, though, that these people would refrain from trying to change this game into things it's not supposed to be.
If this game isn't fun for you, move along to one that is fun, and let the rest of us enjoy MWO for what it is.

It's not so cut and dry, Fut. Most of us have been here since Closed Beta. - weapon additions have been seldom (if any) so we're all experienced with the weapons range. However the smallest Tweaks and cause the utmost of overall change and the feedback can be one way or the other.

[CDLord HHGD]

The only two "real" issues I have brought up have logical arguments for both sides... Of course I am biased to my ideas, but I try to give everyone equal say so long as there is mutual respect. Hard to keep on these forums, even my threads (the two I really care about anyways, linked in my sig.) have their unsavory posts...

Keep positive attitudes, and if this is the case, where players call for the nerf bat because of x or y issue, then all we can really do is provide our constructive feedback and trust in the devs.

Edited by cdlord, 17 April 2014 - 06:59 AM.

[Mcgral18]

With the perfect instantaneous convergence, balance will be impossible. It makes boated weapons just become a single larger weapon, excessively effective against TT armor mechanics.

The other issue is the heat system. Even with 20 or 24 DHS, you'll never be able to keep up sustained fire, unless you're using small lasers. A single flamer will cause you to overheat, since energy weapons don't dissipate heat when they are burning.

Best way to help balance while keeping the weapon mechanics? Fix SRMs and heatsinks/ the heat system. TTK will of course take a hit, but that's what's needed to keep the other spread weapons viable.

[Vestulance]

I'm an old player and sometimes the stuff I see is just crazy. Just got the jester on sale and with its original load out I was barely able to break 300 with 3 kills. Other people in my unit had the same experience...we actually had 3 of them in our lance with an ecm cicada...and he actually out damaged all of us shooting at the same target with 2 lrg lasers. So as foar as balance in the game it seems to be getting worse and worse

[Danghen Woolf]

I agree with the OP that the forums have a lot to do with propigating the "Nerf/Buff" rabble mentality. A new player seeing 500 posts about how LRMs are too powerful is going to assume that is the reason he was killed by them in Alpine and not see the correlation between him running across the open field, the ECM'd spotter and IDF. He will think "OMG LRM OP, I died and didn't even see anyone".

The general rabble-rousing is going to be found on any forum. The best way to prevent it is to provide constructive criticism of any features that, as a player, feel are unbalanced. The skill level of many casual players will tend to plateau when new features are added as they do not spend much time playing. My skill level has improved (I still have a terrible K/D) but I do not play the meta, nor do I "forum-optimize" my mechs. I play loadouts I enjoy playing, that may make me a little less competitive vs. meta or optimized builds but I have fun. Do I feel any one weapon is OP? Not really, all need some work, but I also think a hardcore mode with TT stats for weapons and armor would be awesome.

Best advice for avoiding the torch-wielders, treat each other with a little respect, people get really bent on here over percieved slights to their ideas, skills, names, factions, mechs, paint schemes, etc. You get the idea.

Edited by Danghen Woolf, 17 April 2014 - 07:42 AM.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 17 April 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

---
The other issue is the heat system. Even with 20 or 24 DHS, you'll never be able to keep up sustained fire, unless you're using small lasers.
---

Actually, I once took a 20 DHS Stalker to the River City testing grounds with 6 Small Lasers. I managed to overheat and kill myself, but it did admittedly take a looong time. The fact that it's even possible at all is still utterly stupid, though. I don't have a video of it, though.

Edited by FupDup, 17 April 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Vestulance, on 17 April 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

I'm an old player and sometimes the stuff I see is just crazy. Just got the jester on sale and with its original load out I was barely able to break 300 with 3 kills. Other people in my unit had the same experience...we actually had 3 of them in our lance with an ecm cicada...and he actually out damaged all of us shooting at the same target with 2 lrg lasers. So as foar as balance in the game it seems to be getting worse and worse

See, that's not imbalance. You can mount the exact same weapons, with JJ, on top of more weapons. That's the player skill difference. Speed and ECM make a difference as well.

[Mechteric]

I don't think the OP understands what balance means when it comes to games. It mostly takes into account an "all other things being equal" approach, of course there are good players and bad players but just throwing your hands up and calling it a day just because of this fact makes no sense. Balance is a multifaceted topic that isn't so black and white.

[Metalsand]

CapperDeluxe, on 17 April 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

I don't think the OP understands what balance means when it comes to games. It mostly takes into account an "all other things being equal" approach, of course there are good players and bad players but just throwing your hands up and calling it a day just because of this fact makes no sense. Balance is a multifaceted topic that isn't so black and white.

Which is the problem here. For example: If a player runs into a Centurion AC-20 build, and the Centurion runs circles around him blasting him with the AC-20 at 110 km/h, he's going to think it's the mech or the gun that's overpowered, while in reality it was the player's skill that was the factor.

This is what the OP is talking about primarily, because when everyone goes "Oh x build is OP" then the devs will respond because they want to keep the community happy.

[Greyboots]

Xmith, on 16 April 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

On 6/20/2013, I said in so many words that balance will never happen because of the skill level of players. I'm not referring to just the new pilots. This is also directed at the folks that have been playing for awhile but still are whining about balance. I still believe this to be true.

I'll never forget one of the comments I saw just after the LRM patch: "It sucks, I actually have to take defensive items now".

Everyone at the moment is complaining about LRMs (well, not everyone but you get the drift). This is very often because they run out into the open with their "awesome DPS" mech and get absolutely shredded. This isn't a problem with balance, it;s a problem with the way they play. This is balanced.

If people get hammered by something all the time it might very well be OP. It also might just be that they don't understand that what they want to do is supposed to be a "no-no" with severe consequences for doing it. Balance INCLUDES player skill. If you do silly things you are SUPPOSED to get hammered. You are also supposed to learn from your mistakes and cultivate the skill to overcome them.

[Metalsand]

Greyboots, on 17 April 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

I'll never forget one of the comments I saw just after the LRM patch: "It sucks, I actually have to take defensive items now".

Everyone at the moment is complaining about LRMs (well, not everyone but you get the drift). This is very often because they run out into the open with their "awesome DPS" mech and get absolutely shredded. This isn't a problem with balance, it;s a problem with the way they play. This is balanced.

If people get hammered by something all the time it might very well be OP. It also might just be that they don't understand that what they want to do is supposed to be a "no-no" with severe consequences for doing it. Balance INCLUDES player skill. If you do silly things you are SUPPOSED to get hammered. You are also supposed to learn from your mistakes and cultivate the skill to overcome them.

You said player skill and LRM in the same post? Lolwut?

LRM's are annoying on most maps, but they are OP on certain maps, because it keeps your team from advancing if the enemy team has enough LRM's. Unlike WoT artillery, there is no skill required, since missiles are auto-lock. Maybe a slight bit of instinct, but you can play LRMboat from day 1 nearly as well as day 50.

And by silly things, did you mean walk anywhere that doesn't have a skyscraper or mountain for cover? Because you can still take damage from cover the size of your mech.

[Demuder]

That's some convoluted logic OP. If we follow it, chess or basketball are not balanced games because it's player skill that will ultimately win the match. I won't go into the trouble of proving that chess or basketball are balanced games.

The problem with balance in MWO is that many players, new or old, skilled or unskilled, believe that in a balanced game someone should win half of the time. That is not the case. I can play a 100 matches against a chess grandmaster and I will lose each and every one of them. Same would happen if I went 1v1 against Larry Bird (yes, I am that old). Likewise, I can go against a skilled player in any mech in my Jenner all day and still lose every time (I suck with lights).

In effect, in a balanced game, it is player skill that unbalances the game and leads one side to victory.

So, in order to characterize a game as balanced, one has to take player skill out of the equation. In chess, each side is perfectly balanced until the players sit at their respective sides. Then the game becomes unbalanced. In MWO, things are bit more complicated -and by saying "a bit" I mean "alot"- since the pieces themselves are not the same, but still, it's not impossible.

We could argue all day (and in fact we do) whether MWO is balanced or not. But it is certain that player skill cannot count as an argument in such a conversation.

Edited by dimstog, 17 April 2014 - 08:24 AM.

[Metalsand]

dimstog, on 17 April 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

That's some convoluted logic OP. If we follow it, chess or basketball are not balanced games because it's player skill that will ultimately win the match. I won't go into the trouble of proving that chess or basketball are balanced games.

The problem with balance in MWO is that many players, new or old, skilled or unskilled, believe that in a balanced game someone should win half of the time. That is not the case. I can play a 100 matches against a chess grandmaster and I will lose each and every one of them. Same would happen if I went 1v1 against Larry Bird (yes, I am that old). Likewise, I can go against a skilled player in any mech in my Jenner all day and still lose every time (I suck with lights).

In effect, in a balanced game, it is player skill that unbalances the game and leads one side to victory.

So, in order to characterize a game as balanced, one has to take player skill out of the equation. In chess, each side is perfectly balanced until the players sit at their respective sides. Then the game becomes unbalanced. In MWO, things are bit more complicated -and by saying "a bit" I mean "alot"- since the pieces themselves are not the same, but still, it's not impossible.

We could argue all day (and in fact we do) whether MWO is balanced or not. But it is certain that player skill cannot count as an argument in such a conversation.

His argument was a bit different. Take chess from your post for example. If someone did an amazing manuver using a rook, sweeping across the entire board to enter a checkmate with the opponent, and people cried that rooks were overpowered, PGI would respond by preventing rooks from moving more than 5 spaces at a time.

With basketball? An awesome 3 pointer wins the game, so obviously we should make 3-pointers only worth 2 points. That's the kind of PGI logic we are dealing with, because every "balance" just undoes the last balance patch in a circular fashion, instead of focusing on things the game was promised such as community warfare.